Why Patients are Unable to Heal: Jini Patel Thompson with Dr. Paul Goldberg

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Jini Patel Thompson:

I’m Jini Patel Thompson from www.listentoyourgut.com and we’re here today with Dr. Paul Goldberg and we’re going to be talking about all of the reasons patients are unable to get well. Dr. Paul Goldberg is a clinical epidemiologist, clinical nutritionist, and a chiropractic physician. He’s a professor at Life University in Georgia, which focuses on chiropractic and health sciences and he is also the Director of the Goldberg Clinic for chronic disease reversal.

So if at any point you want to get in touch with Dr. Goldberg, ask him some questions, maybe have a screening or whatnot, you can reach him atwww.goldbergclinic.com.

Paul, thank you so much for joining us today. This is a really exciting topic because this is one of the top frustrations that my readers come to me with. ‘I’m doing everything you say. I’m following the protocols, I’ve changed my diet, but I’m not seeing any progress. What’s going on?’

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Thanks for having me on, Jini. It’s a pleasure to be here with you. Yeah, I think it’s tough on a lot of people who are really trying their very, very best to get well. But as with any journey, no matter how far you walk to get to a destination, if you’re traveling in the wrong direction, you’re never going to get there. So people need to understand maybe some of the errors that they’re making in trying to get well, correct those errors and get themselves on the right path.

Jini Patel Thompson: That’s why I’m really happy to be talking about this with you because you have decades of experience in guiding people in this process of going from extreme debilitating illness to vibrant full body health. You’ve had like a ringside seat to all of their saboteurs and their blocks and their misconceptions and misunderstandings and the way they’re not implementing properly. Can you break those down for us so that the people who are listening can kind of go through a little checklisting and go, ‘am I doing that? Am I doing that? Am I not doing that,’ and maybe get more of a handle on why they’re not seeing results?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Right, I’d be glad to talk about some of them with you, Jini. Our clinic deals almost exclusively with people with chronic health problems where they’ve been sick for some time. And most of my patients have tried diligently to recover their health but if they come to our clinic, it’s been pretty clear they have been unsuccessful in doing that. They’ve been to doctor to doctor to doctor.

Most of my patients have been through standard medical care for anything from inflammatory bowel disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and they find themselves getting sicker and sicker then they tend to lean to going towards so-called alternative medicine.

I’m not a big fan of the term alternative medicine because again, alternative medicine while has some advantages over standard medicine, it still tends to be a hodgepodge of different treatments and therapies that are still addressing the suppression of symptoms as opposed to addressing the ideological or causal factors behind people’s problems.

That would be the first heading I would look at is, is the person understanding? Do they have an understanding of what is causing their disease? I have patients come to our office and they say, “Dr. Goldberg, I already know what’s causing my disease.” I say, “Okay, what is causing your disease?” and they say, ‘I have rheumatoid arthritis’ or ‘I have lupus’ or ‘I have Crohn’s disease.’ Of course what they don’t understand is that is simply a name for the symptoms and for the signs that they have as opposed to being what’s causing their problem.


Dr. Paul Goldberg: Yeah, so we have to say, “Okay, that is the name for your symptoms. You have a name.” And people hang on very, very tightly to the name and people are sometimes people are very, very upset if I say that’s not the cause of your problem. They’ll say, “Dr. Goldberg, you know it took me five years before the doctor finally came up with a label for me. You’re telling me that’s not the cause?”

I understand we like to have a label to give us some direction. But no, that’s not the cause of your problem; that is simply a tag or a title that you’ve been given. So now we have to determine what is causing your actual health problems for it to occur.

Jini Patel Thompson: What are the standard tests that you put someone through to determine their problem?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: There are three steps I think any good practitioner takes in trying to understand the patient’s problems.

The first is going to be doing a good interview with that patient, a case history. The second is going to be doing a physical examination.
The third is going to be doing laboratory tests.

In our clinic, we do both standard laboratory tests and we also do a lot of functional laboratory testing. A lot of my students whom I teach rheumatology or clinical nutrition are very interested in the functional testing, the functional lab tests. They’re very interesting and they are important, but they’re not the most important thing. Certainly patients are interested and my students are interested in the physical exam.

The physical exam is very important, but it’s not the most important thing in uncovering the patient’s problems either. In truth, the most important thing, in my opinion, in understanding what is causing the patient’s problems, is going to be the interview. As I tell my classes, Jini, any good practitioner should have a pretty fair guess at least at what’s causing that patient’s problems at the end of the interview with the patient. It needs to be usually a pretty extensive interview.

We allot 90 minutes for each new patient and we rarely are going to utilize less than an hour of that. Of that hour, most of that hour is going to be spent actually sitting across the table or next to that patient and talking with them and interviewing them as to what their lifestyle has been like; what has been their background in terms of what was their childhood like; what kind of emotional issues have they had; what kind of treatments have they had; what are some of the other myriad of factors that have played a role including things like occupation and marriages and divorces and IRS audits; and what treatments and therapies have they received.

That all have to be looked at in a comprehensive manner to say these are likely some of those factors that are now playing a major contribution in the promotion and the continuation of your health issues. Then we can go to the physical exam and the lab tests.

Jini Patel Thompson: I think what you’ve pointed out is the probably biggest flaw in our current reductionist model of healthcare where we’re like, we’ll run the tests and see what’s missing. See what’s there, or not there, and then let’s go from there. I’ve spent some time previously discussing this, what comes out on the lab results, for example, a stool sample that has been tested for pathogens, or good or bad bacteria, what’s contained in your stool, that actually doesn’t tell you what’s going on in the intestines themselves. That just tells you what’s coming out.

While we would like to have this really black and white marker to say, okay I have this or I have that, or like a food allergy testing. I had my food allergies tested and it said that I’m allergic to this and this and this so I have to avoid that. As you’ve said that’s more of an indicator, that’s a guideline, that’s something to take into account, but then you have to take that and put that together with all of the other things because like let’s say someone is showing a sensitivity to almonds, but they’ve been on the SC diet where they’ve been consuming nothing but almond flour for six months.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Right.

Jini Patel Thompson: Right? Of course they’re going to show a sensitivity to almonds, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re allergic, or that they’re allergic forever. So there’s much more of a holistic approach and a bit more of a balancing and an intuitive approach needed.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Right. Allergy testing can be valuable but the things that you talk about are very, very important to understand and it’s one of more of the popular tests that people come to us and allow us to run and we find that test to be valuable. But as you said, if a patient shows a certain number of allergies, that doesn’t mean that’s what’s causing their problem.

What typically happens in most practices when they do allergy testing, the patient has three or four things they’re allergic to, the doctor takes him off those things. Typically the patient may, and with a fair degree of likelihood, will, feel better for a short period of time. Then all that will happen is that they will start to develop new allergies.

We have to start going back and say you’re allergic to 10 or 20 of the 30 things we’re testing for. Why - now here it is - why is that occurring? So we have to go back and say, How is the gut functioning? Is your gut permeable? Is it allowing a lot of antigenic material, proteins of high molecular weight to get through the intestinal membrane, into your gut, into your blood and setting up an antigenic response?

If that’s case then why is that occurring? What’s causing that too? We have to track these things back as well.

It relates back to just the same thing; one of my big bugaboos is Synthroid. It’s given particularly to women. We have about 25% of our female adult patients that we see that are already on Synthroid. The patient comes to the doctor and say that they’re fatigued. The doctor says let’s check your thyroid; he checks the thyroid, the thyroid is low; he sticks them onto Synthroid. Doesn’t tell them, by the way, that that Synthroid is going to then cause their own thyroid gland to degenerate and eventually they won’t have a working thyroid. And the patient may feel a little better when they go on it. But he has taken the very wrong approach and by the way, after a while, that almost always stops working. Because the right approach, and one we would take, is that the patient comes in and their thyroid levels are low – and in this case their thyroxin level is low – we would only ask the question, why is this happening? What is going on with you nutritionally, dietetically, emotionally? What is allowing that to happen? And let’s now create the right conditions so that the whole body can start getting healthy including the thyroid.

That’s really a good example too because the thyroid is so dependent on the workings of the rest of body, including the other glands. Again the term you used, holistic, is right. You have to take a look at the entire body, not just in a knee-jerk fashion; throw somebody on a hormone. Part of that is are we going to trace symptoms, or are we going to look at actual causes? That’s a choice somebody has to make.

Jini Patel Thompson: So let’s talk about the, because you’ve mentioned this a number of times, the effective emotional events and occurrences, woundings in the past and traumatic events. Have you had a patient and perhaps more than one, who has been willing to do every physical, dietary intervention or change that you’ve suggested, but refuses to go into the emotional side of things?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: I’m going to just circle your question just for a second and get right back to it because I just want to explain what nutrition actually means. I do have what we would say is a nutritionally-based practice. But what I really practice is internal medicine without the medicine.

Jini Patel Thompson: I like that.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: The difference here is that when people come in, whether they’re a student or a patient of mine, they tend to think of nutrition as just the food that we eat. I don’t see it that way at all. To me nutrition is the sum of all the activities that we are engaged in that enable the body to function appropriately or not function appropriately.

So in the avenue of nutrition we have to include not only the diet that the person needs, we also have to include how well do they digest food? How well do they assimilate those materials into their bloodstream? At that point, how well do they absorb those nutrients once in the blood into the cells of the body, and how well are those cells able to excrete, how well can they excrete the waste products out of the body, out of the cell? The last step, how well does the body then eliminate those waste products, having been dumped from the cell into the circulation, and get them out through the kidneys, the bladder, the bowels, the skin, and the breath. All those things go into the nutrition process.

Now what does that involve then? That involves the entire body. That involves the digestive tract, that involves the cardiovascular system, which circulates the nutrients and circulates the waste. It involves the kidneys, the urinary tract. It involves the immune system, which is guarding against foreign materials. It involves the endocrine system, which is intimately related to the GI tract. All the body systems are in fact related to the nutrition process. It’s not just the diet.

In fact in our practice, I have my associate deal with the dietary factors with patients. I tell him what I want them to do and he does that, and I deal with the rest of it. The diet stuff is actually pretty easy if you understand what else is going on.

Now back to your question, what do the emotional factors have to do with it? Emotions affect all of these various symptoms and they affect all these various systems. They affect the GI tract tremendously. The GI tract is extraordinarily sensitive to our emotional thoughts. And conversely when our GI tract is not working appropriately, when we have a GI tract that’s inflamed and you’re having diarrhea 15 or 20 times a day with some type of inflammatory bowel disease, you’re malnourished, then it affects your emotions too.

We know that it works both ways. My initial training as an undergraduate was actually in social work and so I find that training very helpful in practice. We have to understand what’s going on emotionally with the patient – both those things which may have caused the original problems and those factors that may be contributing to an ongoing continuation of the problem, simply because the patient doesn’t feel well now and they’re very sick.

Jini Patel Thompson: Exactly.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: One of the things that you and I talked briefly about was that your emotions can affect the bowel flora. In probably just a matter of hours, you start seeing changes occur in the bowel flora.

Jini Patel Thompson: Do you have, I don’t know if you could even quantify this into a percentage, but I’m just wondering about the number of people you can see that have either a toxic relationship in their inner circle, which may be their mother or their spouse, that is kind of providing an ongoing aggravation to this person’s attempts to get some healing and get some space for their healing to take place. How much do you see that in your practice?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Well of the people where I’m able to ferret that out, I would say it’s not the majority, but it’s a significant minority of people. Some of the common things that people are dealing with are bad relationship with their husband, bad relationship with their wife, bad relationship with their children. So that’s kind of the home life, or it may just be that they don’t have any relationship at all. That can be a problem too.

Then you have to look at the workplace. What’s the workplace relationship is like? If they have a boss that they hate, then after work they go to the one place everybody seems to go who doesn’t like their job, which is the bar at the corner. You know the relationship is a bad one because they’re not happy when they’re at work. They go home at the end of the day and they’re not happy there.

What’s that going to say for their ability to get healthy just by simply taking the proper diet, and getting some exercise and fresh air, all of which are important but cannot take over the effects of having a bad emotional relationship? One of the biggest factors, and I will say this, one of the biggest factors that does play an emotional role in people’s health today is loneliness.

That, even with people who have spouses, can play a very big role because we can be in the middle of a crowd and we could still be lonely. That has a dramatic effect on the immune system. It has a dramatic effect on our digestion no matter what the diet is. The very best of diets is not going to be any better than the very worst of diets if the GI tract is being altered by bad emotional output coming in through both their central nervous system and through their enteric nervous system, which is actually in the gut itself. They’re not going to do well at all. So it’s a fair percentage of people.

Jini Patel Thompson: It’s true, because if you’re thinking that we are hardwired evolutionarily to live in communities and to be surrounded by other people that we’re in connection to. I remember reading Michael Pollan’s latest book and he goes into this just even about cooking your meals.

This is really the first time in history that anybody is cooking in the kitchen alone. Like up until this point, cooking was always shared amongst at least two generations of family members or there was a community focus. In the village, women would get together and they would do group cooking; or you’d go for a hunt and then the whole village would feast together.

This is the first time in history that we are actually– the entire meal planning and preparation is often handled by one person in the family. That person is isolated in the kitchen cooking on their own, and how are they feeling about that? That’s the energy that’s going into the food. And you know all of these things and we think how have we - who for in the entire history of humanity lived in community and lived in connection - managed to fashion our modern lives to be now lived largely in isolation. And why are we doing that and how are we thinking that we can do that and maintain health?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Yeah, it’s a very good point and those changes that you’re talking about I’m just thinking my own lifetime and I’m in my 60’s, but the changes that you’re talking about really have occurred over a very short period of time. Because even when I was a kid in the 1950s, people had extended families and we all got together, we ate together at least once a week. We had family members come over or we went over to our family members.

My family was not at all unique with that. That was true with most kids that I know. And now that’s just not the case. We have a much larger percentage of people that are living alone. I’d suppose maybe a hundred thousand years from now if we lived like this, the species survives long enough, we could evolve to adapt to that. Maybe. But you know, the changes have taken place so rapidly that the human beings simply are not adaptable to this type of social isolation that so many people are living in now.

Jini Patel Thompson: Yeah, let’s talk about another aspect of when people are unable to get well and that’s not being able to understand the symptoms that occur in the process of recovery. So again, we go back to our conditioning by our medical system of saying, take a pill and it goes away.

Even if we know that that’s not truth and we know that it’s take a pill and mask and drive everything deeper into the body, we still have this emotional expectation that “okay, so if I take this diet, I take these supplements, everything is going to go away.” They don’t understand that there’s a process involved. Can you talk about the process involved in true healing and how it may look like you’re going backwards but it’s actually a vital part of the healing process?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Right, I have a little book that I wrote it’s called Bumps on the Journey and I give that to all of my new patients and one of the things that people need to understand particularly if they have a chronic illness which is what our practice is comprised of, is they need to understand the time element that is required to get well.

When a person comes in, they are used to, as you said, getting a pill, a potion, a diet, then going out, they expect a follow up for 24 and 48 hours and feel some difference. One thing they need to understand is that we don’t want to just treat them symptomatically. We want to really undo the damage that’s been done and then to rebuild a new body.

That means there are two basic phases that anybody who has a chronic illness is going to have to go through if they really want to have a high level of vitality and health. The first is they have to go through probably a catabolic process. We’re going to have to break down some of those old ways that have accumulated in there. They have cells that have been generated as a result of 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years of toxic living – toxic food, toxic emotions, toxic water, toxic air. And so those are the materials that those cells are now made out of.

We can’t just simply dump something on top of the toxic cell pool and expect that that those cells are just going to all of a sudden grab themselves up and be normal. We’re going to allow those cells to have a chance to unload their waste. And you know the Max Planck Institute in Germany, oh my god, back around 1968, they identified 500 different compounds that can be found in the cell that the cells have to get rid of usually on a daily basis. These are both what we call exogenous waste and endogenous waste.

In other words, toxins that the body received from the outside, and then there’s also– everybody is always generating toxins from the inside just in the metabolism of daily living. The purest food is going to generate some toxins in its metabolism. So the person first of all has to go through a phase where we’re breaking down old tissues. During that time, there’s going to be waste released into the system, particularly from fat cells.

In most people, that’s going to bring about some unpleasant symptoms – maybe headaches, maybe fatigue. If they have skin problems, they may see an eruption of the skin worse than it was. They may actually feel worse before they feel better. That’s pretty hard for people because they live in a culture that expects instant everything from fast foods, instant cures, and you got these chronic problems generally resulting from many years of multiple insults to the body.

So once we identified the causes, we’ve got to get the cells broken down. Then after we do that and after we get rid those drug residues and after we make up for those 30 years of going to bed at 2:00 in the morning and after we get rid of the side effects of having been smoking for 10 years or drinking or eating junk foods or taking hormones or antibiotics, then we can start rebuilding those cells back up again. But for those who are willing to go through the process, good things will come to those and who make the right effort. That takes some willpower. It takes some willpower to do that.

Jini Patel Thompson: Exactly, and I’m going to jump in here because I know, you’re going to walk us through two phases and I know you haven’t gone through the second one. I’m just going to jump for a second here and say that what you just talked about in terms of the 20 years of accumulative and stuff.

We have lost sight in our culture of what normal health looks like because with my– I have three children, and I’m raising them to not have to go through this period of breaking down all this stuff. You know, I’m raising them from day one to be vibrant and healthy. And so what they slap up against 10, 20 or a hundred times a day is, “Why do we have to do that, everyone else this, everyone else that?” It really, it’s like a glaring highlight how unhealthy the “normal population” has become.

When you have kids who you’re doing everything in a healthy manner right from the start, you’re a complete freak in society because you’re not doing anything like everybody else is doing it. And with the children of course, that’s a big thing for them. “All my friends get to do this. None of my friends have to do that.” And so it’s, I think people-- because our norm has shifted to this dis-ease and imbalance, people don’t realize, they go all, “Yeah, I live a pretty healthy life.” Well no you don’t.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: I had an excellent teacher. His name was Dr. Herbert Sheldon. He was a very famous natural hygienist, and had a large institute in San Antonio for many, many years. There was a quote from him. He talked about the 'abnormal being swept into the realm of normalcy'. He talked about that back in the 1940s, the abnormal being swept into the realm of normalcy.

So many things today – and I know where you’re coming from with your kids because mine are grown up but I remember those days when they said the same things to me – they see things around and they accept them since they grew up with it as being normal. And people are going to that with many things. I’ve seen kids abusing animals and say, “My buddies do this too.” And some people abuse their spouses and they see it, maybe their parents did that and they say, “Isn’t that normal?”

There’s lots of things that are not normal biologically that have, as Dr. Sheldon said, been swept into the realm of normalcy, everything from foods that people eat to staying up 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning and being on the computers. Then they’ll say to us, “Well, why am I sick because I know other people did do this and they seem to get away with this?” To which our response is, “They seem to get away with it is exactly right because just as we know cigarette smoking is very, very tough. It’s a dangerous habit. There are people that seem to get away with it for years, but in the end they’ll pay for it.” So you can’t fool Mother Nature, as the saying goes. It is a problem because when you see people with abnormal habits all around you, those abnormal habits become, regardless, normal over time.

Jini Patel Thomson: And you see that a lot of time with cancer: “He was fine. He was perfectly healthy. And you know, he ate really well and he lived a healthy life, and then boom, cancer." But he’s been 'healthy' by whose standards? If someone like Dr. Paul Goldberg had looked at that person, he would have gone holy– because there’s a lot of work that needs to be done. There’s a lot of toxicity happening in your body.

If you take your dietary information from the mainstream media who is completely reliant and motivated by whoever or whatever agricultural company wants to sell which crop this year. Then you think that, “Oh, I’m doing everything they say in the newspapers, in the magazines about how to eat healthy,” and they have no idea that that is an economically manipulated definition of healthy, that it has actually nothing to do with biological processes, you can understand how people get really confused and really bewildered–

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Look at the number of things they now regard as normal. I mentioned to you that we see so many women on Synthroid right now. A lot of women think that taking hormone replacement therapy including bio-identical hormones is normal. I don’t regard that as normal. I see issues with that too. A lot of people think that taking antacids - which about 25% of the people that are coming to our practice are doing that - consider that as normal.

They see Larry the cable guy advertising some brand of antacid on the television, that’s normal for them to do. I can tell you a story about this, some of this has recently happened. I had a gentleman come in. I did a complete work-up on him including what I thought was a pretty exhaustive case history and interview.

About the third visit, I was talking with him and I said, “You know, if I didn’t know better it just seemed to look familiar with your blood work... there’s something else going on that you didn’t tell me about. Have you ever had a malignancy?” He said, “Well yeah, doc. I do have cancer.” “Was it diagnosed medically that you have cancer?” He said, “Yeah. I have stomach cancer.” I said, “Did you not think to mention that to me when you came in?” He said, “Well, you know, Doc, everybody nowadays has a touch of cancer.”

That’s an absurd enough statement that most of us would still react to it, but it does serve as an example I think of the way in which we’re heading where so many things which are abnormal are now being regarded as being normal. The allergies in kids, when I was in elementary school, it was very unusual for kids to come into school and they can't be around peanut butter or peanut products.

I talk to school nurses who say, “No, there’s not just one or two kids in the whole school anymore. We’ve got a whole nursing station full of meds that we have to give these kids throughout the day. There may be as many as 20% of the kids in class we have to give them medications too during the day.” The younger nurses are actually seeing that as normal. The older nurses who might be in their 50s or 60s now say, “This isn’t normal. We didn’t used to see this back in the ‘50s or the ‘60s or the ‘70s or even the ‘80s. It’s something new.” So it’s all kind of, what background we’re coming from and what we’re used to seeing.

Jini Patel Thompson: Exactly. So let’s get back to your process of undoing the damage and rebuilding the body. So you talked about the first phase, which is mostly the catabolic activity of washing toxicity–

Dr. Paul Goldberg: What we pride ourselves on doing, and I think it’s something that every office should try to do, is we’re trying not to just placate the cell and suppress the symptom. We’re trying to actually rebuild the body so the person can have a new body. That is something that, to a large degree, is possible because our cells do turn over. You give the body five years, you virtually have an entirely new body.

Well, the fastest growing cells, Jini, in our body are red blood cells. But even red blood cells take about three months, maybe as long as four months in some people to have a turnover. Three to four months. Now, most people are expecting symptomatic improvement long before then and a lot of people do.

But a person that understands that, since it takes three to four months for even the fastest growing cells to turn over, they need, because usually with a chronic problem that’s been for 20, 30, 40 years, they need to get themselves a few months before things will start actually feeling better.

Jini Patel Thompson: Right.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: I don’t know about your house. But in my house, when I do a spring cleaning on my house, it’s going to look worse before it’s going to look better. I’m going to be up emptying the cupboards and the drawers and I’m going to be taking things apart and moving furniture, so things are going to look worse before they get better. But when I’m done, the house is going to look good. I’m going to have it repainted inside.

I’m going to get everything organized. I’m going to shampoo the carpets. I’m going to have a nice, fresh, sweet, attractive-looking home when I’m done. But during the process, it’s going to look bad. You get an old car, it’s the same thing. You may have to put Gumout through the carburetor, for those people who remember Gumout in carburetors.

And when you do that, the car is going to cough and gag and black smoke is going to come out of the tailpipe as you’re running the Gumout through and the car has to rid itself of noxious carbon deposits that have accumulated over the years. The car sounds terrible for a short period of time, and then it runs smooth. Then it runs even, and you got a great running car.

Jini Patel Thompson: So do people have, is there a variance in how long they experience the worsening from the waste products being released from the cells and tissues like you talked about - headaches and fatigue and skin eruptions? Is there an average length of time that that goes on, or is it really case-specific in terms of how toxic they were to start with?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Well, it is case-specific but I will say this. It takes much less time for people normally to get well than it took for them to get sick. So if they’ve been sick for 10 years, they’re normally going to, even symptomatically, they are going to probably see improvements within four to six months; some people even earlier than that. The problem again though is that they’re expecting – I’ll give you an example.

I had a patient one time come to see us. And she just came for an interview, to interview us, which we allow people to do. She came to interview us. And she’s talking, she said, “Well, in terms of what I’d be eating, Doctor, what would I be eating if I was to work with you?” I said, “Well, that would vary depending upon what we find. We’ll have to go through stages with you.” She said, “Just give me some idea, like would I be eating things like apples and carrots, that kind of thing?” I said, “Yeah, you’d be eating fresh fruits, that kind of thing eventually, sure.” So she said okay.

So she went home to think about whether she was going to become a patient or not, and we understand people need to think about it. So she called me back the next day, which she didn’t have to do, but she was very courteous and she called me back the next day. And she said,

“Dr. Goldberg, I’m not going to be proceeding with care with you.” I said, “Okay. I appreciate your calling and letting us know.” I said, “What’s the reason for it?” She said, “Well last night after I got home, I asked you if I’d be eating things like apples and carrots, I went home and I ate an apple, Dr. Goldberg. And you know what, Doc? The next morning, I didn’t feel one bit better.”

This was a lady that had been sick for 30 years with rheumatoid arthritis. It’s not this lady’s fault. It’s just the way that she has been conditioned to think of an apple like a pill. You take it and you’re going to feel better the next day. This is a lady who had been on 20 years of steroids and had also taken Ambrol and had been on methotrexate. And we would have had to undo the damage that had been done to her first before we could ever get to the phase where she would start to feel better.

Another thing that also has to do with that, Jini, in the how long it’s going to take: How many drugs have they taken? How much have they abused their body? How long have they been sick? And what is their age? Typically, an older person who’s been sick longer is going to take a little bit longer in order to start feeling better. A younger person who hasn’t been sick that long is going to feel better sooner. Then the last thing is, the most important thing, is how hard is the patient going to work? I tell the patient, “The harder you’re willing to work, the sooner you’re going to start feeling better.”

Jini Patel Thompson: Yeah. Right now when you’re talking to me about this process, I’m wondering how many people can actually follow through with your method of basically true healing because our culture is so positive they’ll get a result fast, fast, fast. “I want to get there yesterday.”

So this whole thing of will power and self-discipline, I mean these are not even things that people really talk about anymore. They’re more like faster, quicker, sooner, easier, you know. Is it more that when people meet you and you talk to them first, they get weeded out and only the people who are really ready to change and committed end up staying with you? Or do they get into it and they go, “Wow! This is harder than anything I’ve done in my life. I just rather go back to taking pills”? What really happens with your clients?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Our clinic has evolved over the past 35 to 40 years and a lot of it has to do with trying to educate patients from the beginning. And we do that on our website which is at www.goldbergclinic.com. And we have a couple of videos there that actually explain a bit of our approach and what first people can generally expect to go through.

I have written this little book we call Bumps on the Journey, which explains that also to people. But the nature of our practice is such that we’re working with people with serious health issues. It’s a double-edged sword, but there are some advantage for us, for Dr. Tener, my associate, and myself. When somebody comes in and they have already been through the medical mill and they’ve already been through the alternative medical mill too. They’ve tried all these things on their own and they’ve gotten sicker and sicker. And now, they’re in pain because – you know, Jini, you and I both have been sick when we were younger, and pain is a great motivator.

If they’re in enough discomfort, that’s a great motivator for them to say, “Okay. I’ve been through the medical mill. I know what doesn’t work. I know taking drugs is not the solution for me. I’m ready, I’m willing to roll up my sleeves, and let’s do it.” Then we get their informed consent. We inform them what’s going to be happening, the process that’s going to happen. Then say, “Is this something you want to delve into, you want to dig into?” If they’re ready to start, then we have a pretty high percentage of people that will follow through. But they have to be motivated from the start.

Jini Patel Thompson: Yeah. And do you find that people have to kind of create a space for that in their life? Like if you think of the typical life, I mean almost all of us, we barely have a minute to spare. We’re go, go, go between our work and our kids - some of us actually have hobbies. There’s not a lot of free time. Do you find that for people to be successful with healing, they have to almost view it as if they were to start, “I’m going to learn to paint, so I’m going to dedicate time to that and I’m going to create space for that in my life,” do you find that a similar process has to happen with healing?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Absolutely, yes, I do. I’ll just tell you briefly my own story, I tell this to patients. Tell them, I’ve been there, done that. This is what you’re going to have to do. When I got sick in my early 20s, I was doing a joint degree in law and medicine at Ohio State University, and I got sick during that time. I didn’t want to give up a joint degree in law and medicine, but I realized that getting crippled as I was with the rheumatoid arthritis and ulcerative colitis, there wasn’t a lot value for me to continue with my studies if I was going to be that sick. And not to mention I was kind of discouraged because I had the access to the best medical doctors being at Ohio State and being part of the medical establishment of students at that time, and they were unable to assist me at all.

So I basically discontinued that training at that time. I went back to school later. But I discontinued that training for that time, and I spent a year, a full year, doing nothing but trying to get well. I was fortunate I ended up being at a health retreat center in Florida at the time. I got an internship down there. But I had to put everything on hold. And sometimes people, to some degree, just have to do that. They have to make getting better a priority and sometimes make some sacrifices in order to do that. But I call that – what you have to do sometimes, you have to retreat from the battle so you can come back and win the war. That’s an old expression but I think it holds a lot of truth to it.

Jini Patel Thompson: Well, and I’ve had some readers contact me. I remember one person in particular. He had one semester left to get his college degree. He was like, “I’m really torn as to what to do.” From my point of view, I was like well – he understands that he’s not going to get healing until he quits with the drugs and starts with the true root level healing like getting through the causes. But also, you’ve got one semester left and then you’re actually going to have a good time to take a break right? Where you could take say a year off before you get a job or whatever, but you’ll be done with college so you won’t have that stress hanging over you.

So maybe, if at all possible, can you use the drugs as a crutch to get you through the next four months, get your degree, and then go and commit fully, rather than trying to do half and half, stumbling along, not getting success with either, and having the added stress of trying to finish your degree at the same time? It’s kind of a thing where you go – I can’t believe I’m actually suggesting that somebody continue on their drugs.

But when you look at it from the big picture point of view, you say well, if the drugs can hold you for four months – because we’re still going to have to repair that damage anyway whenever you decide to get off the med treatments and get into healing. So if it can hold you another four months and you can get your degree, well that might just be the better route to take for now.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Maybe, maybe so. The problem is when people start bartering and bargaining with nature. They’re bargaining with me, they say, ‘look, Doc, how about if we...’ I’ll make a recommendation to them if it’s what I think they ought to be doing, they say, “What about if we do this, I will continue taking the drugs and I will do exactly what you want me to do too, and then I’ll also do some alternative medicine. I’ll take some herbs and I’ll have to get some crystals and wave it over my head, and I’ll do some meditation. I’ll do all that stuff together in order that I don’t have to give up so many things that are helping me with my symptoms right now.”

And my response to that is, “You can only serve one master.” I don’t know where that’s from. I think that might be from the bible. It’s playing a slippery slope when people start making too many compromises. And you know, they talk to me, Jini, sometimes as if I can grant them that compromise. I say, “Okay, well then you take some steroids, fine and dandy. We’ll give you some vitamin C to help develop stronger collagen at the same time that the steroids tear apart your connective tissue.”

Jini Patel Thompson: Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: I don’t control biological laws. I can’t mandate what God and nature are going to do, and no practitioner can. People have to be careful about looking for compromises and trying to serve too many masters at one time.

Jini Patel Thompson: Yeah. What I find too with my readers is some of them are coming straight out of the med system and they’ve had no experience with herbal or energetic or holistic healing whatsoever. So there’s a real lack of fluency because everything is just so new and everything is just so difficult for people like that. And because I’m not a doctor and I don’t do consults and unlike you, I would not be there to support them through the process. This is something that they either then have to go and book with you and find someone like you; or they have to be self-monitoring.

So for people like them, what I see they normally often will need to do is to say, “I can wean. I can start weaning off this drug and I can start weaning off that drug. But until I get some fluency in holistic healing protocols, until I’ve actually taken some of these substances and learned that they’re okay, or started to change my diet and oh it hasn’t put me back in a flare, so now I’m feeling more confident,” until they get to that level, then they can’t commit fully to the holistic healing anyway because they just – there’s no place for it in their existing psyche. They haven’t used it. They haven’t – you know what I’m saying?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Oh sure. They have a lot of confidence in the medical system. Still a lot of them I think are misguided but I don’t understand why they have that. The problem is, and I would take it a step further and I agree with everything you said, but I would take one step further, the individual, oftentimes they’ve gone through the medical system and perhaps they’ve found it’s not working. So then they’re watching Dr. Oz or somebody on TV or they read one of the thousands and thousands of alternative books that are out there, and they end up getting even more confused than they were before.

Again, that’s why I’m not a proponent of alternative medicine, because it’s still a form of medicine. A lot of the patients we see have already been down that road as well. So instead of saying I won’t take aspirin, I’ll take willow bark. Willow bark is the same thing as salicylic acid. So they’re still looking for – and nobody gets sick because they have a deficiency of aspirin or willow bark.

So again, they have to be looking for causes. It’s a shame because there are many good doctors out there who are practicing with holistic methods, but they are intertwined and immersed with a whole slew of people out there, many of whom are licensed, who are dealing with giving standard drugs and then saying, “Well here, take some vitamin C along with this because we’re holistic,” or “While you’re taking your Ambrol, it would be good idea to throw in some fish oil.”

We’re still not looking at causal factors and we’re still medicating. What I advocate is not alternative medicine. I advocate an alternative to medicine because alternative medicine is still medicine. There’s different levels that people go through in terms of their comfort zone. But again going back, until people can identify “what were the causes of why I got sick and how do I address them at their roots?” Until they do that, they’re just playing with symptoms.

Jini Patel Thompson: You know what? You’re absolutely right. I think that’s a distinction that isn’t made often enough, that just because you take an herb, that accomplishes the same alleviation or masking of symptom as that drug, it doesn’t mean you’re any further ahead because, as you’ve said, the cause of the headache, the cause of the joint pain is still there. What if you’re taking MSM for your joint pain or white willow bark for your headache, why is the headache there in the first place? Why is the joint pain there in the first place? You still haven’t traced it back, so you still haven’t achieved the healing.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Right. That’s where I think a good practitioner can come in handy because a good practitioner can look at a person objectively. You said you’re not a practitioner, you’re not licensed, you have the ability too because you’re a very well-educated person and you’re insightful to listen to somebody if you wanted to.

Just listen to them as an outsider and say I think this is where your problems are coming from. This is what I’m hearing and this is what I’m observing. The patient themselves, no matter how well-educated they might be, no matter how many books they may have read, doesn’t have the ability to look at themselves objectively and see what are the factors that are actually playing a causal role in my getting sick?

It doesn’t have to necessarily be a practitioner. Sometimes it might just be your mom or your dad or your best friend who sits outside of you and says did you ever consider that such and such may be causing your problem?

Jini Patel Thompson: Yes, exactly. I call that the fresh eyes phenomena because – Dr. Paul Goldberg: That’s a good word.

Jini Patel Thompson: – it doesn’t matter whether it’s your business, or your parenting, or your health, you can never underestimate the benefit of fresh eyes because you, you’re in this situation, you’re surrounded, you’re living it. You cannot see the wood for the trees. You cannot. It’s impossible. But somebody else, even –

Dr. Paul Goldberg: And sometimes the answer is that somebody else will see is very simple, very, very simple.

Jini Patel Thompson: Exactly. It’s amazing how you could talk to a stranger for 15 minutes on a train and they could tell you something that you hadn’t seen.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: That’s right.

Jini Patel Thompson: Yes, so fresh eyes, absolutely.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: There was a guy many years ago, back around 1910, his name was Horace Fletcher – your great grandparents might have heard of him. And Horace Fletcher was a businessman, a very wealthy businessman, very successful businessman but he had terrible gastrointestinal problems, again around 1910, 1915. Went all over the United States, went all over Europe trying to find a solution to his problems. He went to the best doctors at the time and nobody was able to help him.

One day, to make a long story short, one day he sits down with a friend of his in a nice restaurant. And Horace Fletcher was lamenting to his friend how sick he is and how his GI problems are ruining his life. He can’t enjoy anything. And meanwhile, his friend just sitting there, he’s a layperson, he’s sitting and just observes Horace eating and he says to Horace, he said, “Horace, I just thought of maybe if you start to slow down the way you’re eating, just chew your food really well, because you’re kind of swallowing your food almost without chewing it.”

And Mr. Fletcher was just absolutely outraged. He said, “What would you know? You’re just a layperson. I’ve been to the best doctors and nobody can tell me what’s wrong with me. And you’re saying it just has to do with my not chewing my food well? How ridiculous.” So to kind of spit in his friend’s face a bit, going ahead with the rest of the meal, he chews his food extra, extra well. He says, “How about that? Look how well I’m chewing my food now because I guess you really think that could help me.” At the end of the meal, he’s kind of interested because he doesn’t feel quite as sick.

So he goes home that night and he says, “Okay. I’m going to try this.” Now he starts chewing his food really, really well. Long story short, three months, four months later, Horace Fletcher’s a new man. He wrote a book about how he overcame chronic disease by chewing his food well. He got a group of adherents – for anybody who’s listening to his – he got a group of adherents, followers who became known as the Fletcherites. They would Fletcherize their food.

He lived in the 1920’s and 30’s. People probably heard about that and they could be seen in the restaurants chewing their food 100 times before they swallowed anything. Now, Horace Fletcher was a little misguided because he then thought that chewing your food well was the cause and the cure for all disease, and it was just in his particular case and some other people’s too. But it does again go to the point that other people can sometimes make very, very intelligent observations that can be very, very helpful to us.

Jini Patel Thompson: Very cool. So before we wrap this up, oh you know what? There’s one other thing I think we should talk about in terms of this process of the reasons people are unable to get well. Let’s talk about dependency on others. How does that figure in to a patient's situation?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: I think that anybody with a problem has to take some responsibility. In fact, the major responsibility has to be on the patient. People rely too much on authority, often to their own detriment. I’ve seen so many patients who have had their female organs removed, their thyroids removed, their gall bladders removed simply because “my doctor told me to.” They oftentimes deeply regret it later.

The same thing with people taking dangerous drugs, even when they know how many side effects they have, again because “my doctor said to do it.” They’re just not too tuned in - I went through a period like that too when I was in my early 20s, when I was sick - where they turn off their brains and they rely on medical authority, or any authority. It could be a naturopathic, chiropractor, an osteopath, whoever it might be. That may be the easy way to go, but it’s very risky to our health with hundreds of thousands of people dying each year as a result of taking prescription drugs and getting unnecessary surgeries rather than addressing the source of their problems.

So it’s important to think for ourselves, explore our options carefully, address the causal factors, and not blindly rely just on authority. One has to take personal responsibility, and that includes not listening to others, I think, carefully including your friends and your neighbors and your relatives and your doctors, but then saying ultimately, “This is my personal responsibility.” I know each person knows their own body just as well as anybody is going to.

And remember that, for the most part, each doctor – whether they’re a medical doctor, a chiropractor, an osteopath – they have been taught certain tenets while they are in school. I went through a year of medical school, I went through all the years, four years of chiropractic college, and I assure our listeners that no matter what school your practitioner may have come out of, he or she was brainwashed.

The practice of healthcare is a business. It’s a business. There’s no two ways around that. And so when a doctor’s taught certain things, that’s the way he’s going to practice. And usually they have blinders on their eyes from that point forward. So the ultimate responsibility, you know it should be, but it has to be, the patient's. They shouldn’t put too much reliance on authority.

Jini Patel Thompson: I’m going to devil’s advocate you on that point. So let’s just go there. So you say that, I hear that, and I’m going to say back to you: But I’m a layperson; I don’t have any training. How can I possibly be the expert? How can I possibly say to my doctor, ‘Well, you’re wrong. I don’t think I should have my gall bladder removed. I think I should do something else.’

Dr. Paul Goldberg: I would say to that person, I understand where you’re coming from and certainly you need to listen to your – if you trust your doctor, you need to listen to him carefully. Take his advice under scrutiny, but listen to it and consider it carefully. But consider this also, that the animals in the wild don’t need somebody to educate them necessarily about how many hours of sleep they should get or what water they should drink, or following their diet.

They have a certain innate intelligence that allows them to make wise decisions intuitively as to what they’re going to do. So I think it’s up to each individual to start studying a little bit about what really makes them healthy. What are the real essentials, the foundations of health? And looking at that carefully and then thinking how does that apply to me? Because, Jini, I’ve had people come in with very, very complex diagnoses, told that they were incurable, and of course under medical care, they were incurable.

The drugs and surgery were not going to solve their problems. The solutions for their problem were oftentimes very, very simple. I’ll give you one example. I had somebody come to me just about three or four months ago that was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia and irritable bowel syndrome. In talking to that individual, it turns out that he tends to get to bed around 2:30 every morning, gets up around 6:30.

I have people do a sleep record and diet record and so forth for me. I said, “You’re only getting about four hours of sleep every night. There is no way that your body can restore to you for all the energy you’ve lost during the day just in a period of three or four hours. So I want you to try something very simple. I want you to go to bed every night at 9:00 and you get up at 7:00. I want you to do that for 30 days.” He said, “What’s that going to do?” I said, “That’s going to help to restore the energy to you. It won’t cost you a penny, and that’s what I want you to do. And let’s see how it goes.”

When he did, he came back. He said, “Doc, I can’t believe it. My fibromyalgia is gone and my chronic fatigue is gone and my irritable bowel syndrome is much better. I wonder what happened.” I said, “Then you need to understand about what sleep is. I want you to think about that.” I explained to him what I could tell him, how sleep works. So, when we don’t want to rely on authority, we can start by saying, “What are the simple things that I can do that are essential or foundational to good health that I can make application myself?” And let’s try those things first. Then, if we can’t get well, we can go back and see what kind of nostrums and potions and procedures the professional wants us to do.

The doctor’s supposed to be a teacher. He’s supposed to be teaching – what are you doing? What has contributed, or what has led to the development of your problem and how should it be addressed so that we get to the roots of it?

Jini Patel Thomson: And just pulling back again to what you said about don’t start using alternative medicine in the way they, “Well now I’m just using an herb to replace my drug. But

I’m still not addressing the root cause,” because I think we see that happening a lot in naturopathic clinics where they’re also earning their money from the supplements that they sell. I’ve seen a lot of people where their naturopaths had said, “Take this for your heartburn and take this for your this, and this for your that.”

And so the person is on six or seven or eight different supplements a day to again manage their symptoms, without the root cause of everything being addressed, either because they’re resistant to it, or because their naturopath is feeling that, “Well, as long as these herbs handle your symptoms, we’re okay. We don’t need to go any deeper.” But really, you do.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: I think you’ve put this beautifully in the two books that I’ve read that you’ve written. You used some herbs and things in your protocols, but these are temporary measures to help bring the patient back to balance while they’re also giving – and you talk a lot about this in your books – about giving serious consideration as to other factors that have led to the development of these. You’re not presenting oregano oils as the panacea for all their issues.

You’re saying, “Because of these various problems, you’ve developed this overgrowth, you’ve developed these infections. This is one way to help manage it while you are also addressing the causal factors. Then together, we get you back to good health. So you're not reliant on oregano oil for the rest of your life or anything else.” But you’re just using it as a temporary measure to help to restore balance to the individual.

Jini Patel Thomson: Yes, exactly. Are there any supplements that you do feel people need to take ongoing just because they are now missing from our soil, from our food supply? Or have you found that if people eat and live in a certain manner, they can get everything they need still from nature?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Well long term, as a guy in his 60s now, I've had little bit of time to learn about this, I would encourage people, ultimately if they can, to buy a little piece of land, take on a more gentle lifestyle, start raising your own food, and getting better connected with the planet. Because a lot of the problems we have today are simply that we’re not connected well with the planet anymore. We’re not connected with the bacteria and other microorganisms of the planet. We’re not connected with other people, as you mentioned at the beginning of our discussion today. We’re not connected with the sun enough, which is why we’re all having a vitamin D deficiency.

There’s all kinds of ways that we’re disconnected from the planet now. And we end up having toxicities and, in this case, deficiencies largely because we’re not eating the right things and because we’re not able to digest, absorb, and assimilate them appropriately. There are a number of things that happen. So ultimately I think it’s best for people to start just planting gardens, getting their feet back in the ground and getting connected to the sun and to their fellowmen and women and all those things.

Having said that, there are a couple of areas where people probably need– and everybody’s different. In our practice, we’re very big on biochemical individuality, a term that one of my teachers – Dr. Roger Williams, University of Texas – talked about a lot. The areas I think and basically is a good multiple vitamin mineral tablet, is probably a good idea for most people, number one. Number two is probably looking carefully what their fatty acids are looking like and then starting to make changes in their diet to correct those ratios. And sometimes it’s a good idea to get a fatty acid analysis done first and see what your fatty acids are like. A lot of people can benefit at least for a time from a fatty acid supplement.

Third category would probably be in terms of the bacteria in the gut, in terms of a probiotic. There are a couple of things we have to say for that: Don’t take something just because you heard it was “good for you,” and I hear this all the time. Because most of our patients come in today, they’re taking a fish oil supplement, they're on a gluten-free diet and they’re taking a probiotic. And they’re wondering why they’re not well. Because they heard all those things were “good for you.” Well, they’re good under what circumstances? How much should you take? At what time should you take it?

A lot of practice procedures are about timing. A probiotic can be very appropriate in certain circumstances, in fact a lot of circumstances. But you’ve got to have the right probiotic, number one. You’ve got to use it for the right amount of time, number two. And you’ve got to make sure that the quality of it is something that matches up with your needs. So it’s not just running to the store and buying a probiotic. The same thing is true of taking a fatty acid supplement like Flaxseed oil or fish oil. You have to make sure you have a high quality product, number one.

Number two, you’re taking it at the right time. And number three, it’s a quality product and that you actually need it.

Jini Patel Thomson: Yes, exactly. Also, I really like what you said about growing a garden and connecting back in. And not because you like gardening or that’s something that you go, “Oh, it’ll be fun to have a garden.” No, there’s a bigger reason for it. Maybe you don't even like gardening, but you go, “Actually, it’s important for me to connect back into the earth, not just to the energies of the earth, the electromagnetic balance of the earth, but also to the microbes and the soil, for me to be a part of that and connected to that.” Then instead of taking mineral supplements, I’m going to put the minerals in my soil and let my plants be healthier, that I am then going to eat.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Yeah. We get so many benefits when we harvest food ourselves. The problem is, the public expects – they want to see proof of this. Well, it’s like breast milk. In the 1950’s, nobody wanted to breastfeed their baby. Then study after study started coming about the benefits of breastfeeding. And still today, I don’t even look at these studies anymore. So now, this study shows that breast milk does this for the baby. The study says that breast milk does that for the baby.

And my response is, “Well, duh, that’s what the breasts on the lady is there for. It’s to supply milk for the offspring.” The breasts on the cow, it’s supposed to supply milk for the calf; if it’s on a human being, it’s supposed to supply milk for their human child. We don’t need to have studies in a facility to do that. So it should come fairly innately to people that being connected to the planet and having our feet in the soil and breathing fresh air and getting sunlight is all important.

There’s too many other interests out there, and this whole thing about vitamin D now. I’ve been advocating people to get sunlight since 1975 when I first started to realize it myself. And now the studies are out there. But the medical doctors aren’t telling people to get out in the sun. They’re telling them to take vitamin D capsules. Now, there are certain parts of medical establishment who want to make vitamin D a prescription drug and have control over it. Well, you don’t get the benefits of the sun just by swallowing a vitamin D capsule.

You take so-called vitamin D, it’s not even a vitamin, it’s a hormone. We get back to looking at what’s the real problem here? Was it we all had a deficiency and we weren’t taking vitamin D capsules? The problem is we all spend too much time inside. We’re not getting outside in the sunlight and fresh air. We do that, problem stops.

Jini Patel Thomson: And even, like for me, I’m in Vancouver, British Columbia, Pacific Northwest. I live in a rainforest. This is not a place that is known for a lot of sunshine. But what I do is, I’ve noticed that even during the rainiest months of winter, there will be an hour and maybe it’s first thing in the morning or maybe it’ll be in the afternoon where the clouds part for one or maximum two hours, I drop whatever I’m doing and I go out in the sun.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: There you go.

Jini Patel Thomson: That’s all you need to do. You can survive even in this highly cloudy, highly rainy climate if you do that. So again now, if you’re in an office job in an office tower, how are you going to tell your boss, “It’s sunny, I got to go outside,” so I guess there are limitations to that, that are then plugging into bigger issues in terms of your satisfaction with your life and your set-up and everything. But if at all possible, when you see that sun no matter where you live, you go out and you get into it--

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Thousands of years ago there was a guy named Hippocrates talking about the importance of getting sunlight. Some of my teachers 60 years ago were talking about the same thing. And so now again, they stopped talking about just getting sun. They’re talking about taking vitamin D capsules. Vitamin D capsule is maybe okay if there’s no other way around it. But just as you have done on your own, you make the best you can. You look at the causal factors. Then if you have to, you take a supplement in addition to that. But you try to address those essential, those foundational, those fundamental essentials of health first.

Jini Patel Thomson: Yeah, exactly. Fabulous. I’m Jini Patel Thomson from www.listentoyourgut.com. And we’ve been having the most fantastic discussion with Dr. Paul Goldberg from www.goldbergclinic.com. Paul, do you do phone consults with people or do people have to come see you in person?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: No, Jini, I’ve made it a point, because of the essential nature of being able to see somebody and to listen to somebody and to get my hands on them and do an examination. But again the most important thing is about actually seeing them in person, that we only take patients if they come to us first. We only require one visit, but we want to get to know somebody first, in person, in order to be able to help them appropriately.

Jini Patel Thomson: So they could just say book a trip, come in, see you for one or two visits –

Dr. Paul Goldberg: A lot of our patients, what they do is they come in for one visit, which will normally take about two hours. Then we will work with them over the phone and over the email subsequent to that. As long as they come in for that first initial visit, because I want to meet them in person first.

Jini Patel Thomson: That is a really, really good idea. And actually a really good idea of weeding out the people who are actually going to be willing to walk the process.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: There you go.

Jini Patel Thomson: Yeah, good point. Well, thank you so much.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: My pleasure. Thank you so much for allowing me to have this time with you.

Jini Patel Thomson: Like you said, you’ve got videos and you’ve got a lot more information articles on your website, is that correct?

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Yeah. It’s www.goldbergclinic.com. There’s lots of videos, lots of educational materials on there. They can see videos of our patients. They can see what kind of work we do. And we also have a newsletter there that they’re more than welcome to sign up for.

Jini Patel Thomson: Perfect. Well, until next time, I’m sure we’re going to do another call. We have a number of topics we can go through actually. But thank you so much for this one, and all your insights on all of those blocks to healing that people can encounter.

Dr. Paul Goldberg: Thank you, Jini.